THE LEGENDARY TALKS

—The Legendary Talks:6

An Exclusive Interview with

Yongbo Ma

by Maja Milojković

My lifelong pursuit of poetry and scholarship has since been an endeavor to return to that moment of ultimate unity with all things.

— Yongbo Ma

Ma Yongbo, born in 1964, is a Ph.D, representative of Chinese avant-garde poetry, and a leading scholar in Anglo-American poetry. He has published over eighty original works and translations since 1986 included 9 poetry collections. He focused on translating and teaching Anglo-American poetry and prose including the work of Dickinson, Whitman, Stevens, Pound, Williams and Ashbery. He has recently published a complete translation of Moby Dick, which has sold over 600,000 copies. He teaches at Nanjing University of Science and Technology. The Collected Poems of Ma Yongbo (four volumes, Eastern Publishing Centre, 2024) comprising 1178 poems, celebrate 40 years of writing poetry. He is the editor-in-chief of the “Chinese Regional Poetry Yearbook” and the “Northeast Three Provinces Poetry Yearbook”.

In the following exclusive interview with Ma Yongbo, we present 10 questions that shed light on his unique contributions to Chinese poetry and his role as a translator. This conversation offers an insight into his rich career, creative processes, and philosophical reflections that shape his work, as well as the challenges he faces in translating poetic works across cultures. Through his answers, you will discover the profound connection between art, philosophy, and linguistic creation, which makes his work exceptional and inspiring.

Maja Milojković

Editor, AREA FELIX,

Belgrade, Serbia.

….

MAJA MILOJKOVIĆ

Your poetry has evolved over the years, incorporating elements of postmodernism and deconstruction. Could you share how your creative journey began, and what was the most significant turning point in your poetic style?

YONGBO MA

From 1983 to the mid-1990s (a decade), I advocated a narrative poetics centered on the presentation of complex individual experiences to counterbalance — or more precisely, recalibrate —the overpowering lyrical tradition in Chinese poetry. This aimed to achieve a “transitive” quality in poetry, pioneering the exploration of experiential poetics. By emphasizing narrative-driven experiential poetics, I sought to counter the excesses of romanticist lyricism. As a primary advocate of experiential poetics in Chinese, my work did not reject lyricism outright but balanced it with experiential depth. At heart, I remain a lyrical or metaphysical poet. Key works include Return (1983), Kafka (1986), Autumn, I Will Grow Weary (1986), A

Chilly Winter Night Going Alone to Watch a Soviet Film (1987), A Walk with the Spirit (1990), Xiao Hui (1994), and Cinema (1996).

For Ashbery, language is both a conveyor and an obstructer of meaning, possessing the dual attributes of revelation and concealment.

From the mid-1990s to the late 20th century (five years), my focus shifted to deconstruction. Observing that the generalization of “narrative” led to solipsism and spiritual stagnation, I recalibrated narrative poetics by proposing “pseudo-narrative” (meta-poetry), aligning with postmodern self-reflexivity. This sought to equalize the creative subject with all existence, exposing narrative contingency, historicity, semiotics, and self-referentiality while laying bare the world’s fragmentation. These techniques, as “the authentic way humans observe reality,” relate not merely to craft but to artistic conscience. Representative works from this period include Pure Work (1995), Fantastic Collection (1995), Autumn Lake Conversations (1995), Local Reality: Necessary Fiction (1997), Pseudo-Narrative: Murder in the Mirror or Its Story (1998), as well as several dozens of medium-length and long poems from the late 1990s. In 1999, I published two-volume Anthology of American Postmodern Poetry after eight years of hard translation work, which, along with my creative practices, became a foundational source for Chinese postmodern poetry.

In the 21st century, my exploration coalesces around three keywords: difficulty, objectivity, and ecology. Countering the flattening of contemporary desire-driven writing, I critiqued my own postmodern influences and championed “difficulty writing” under meta-modernism, emphasizing spiritual height, experiential

One of Ashbery’s greatest contributions to lyric poetry lies in his incorporation of an expansive social lexicon—colloquial speech, journalistic clichés, business and technical jargon, allusions to pop culture and canonical works, even platitudes — all of which abound, some of which are difficult to decipher.

breadth, and intellectual depth. This corrective to Chinese poetry’s decline revitalized its essence. I advocate an “objective poetics” rooted in inter-subjective philosophy, process philosophy, and ecological holism, shifting from deconstructive to constructive postmodernism. Key works include the ecological classic the ecological poetry classic Cool Water Cantos (2001-2006), the long poem. Even the Most Humble Existence Attempts to Establish Its Own Order (2006), the poetic drama Vita Nuova (1991-2015), and the long poem Pound Cantos (2021).

The most significant shift in contemporary Chinese poetry is the move from fixed ideologies (ideological centrism, enlightenment, deconstruction) to constructing poetry attuned to the interconnectedness of existence itself.

As a key figure in this transition, my contribution lies in diversifying linguistic experiments to imbue Chinese with self-referential complexity,

Another insight lies in how we, as poets, reflect on ourselves through our relationships with the self, others, society, and nature.

enabling it to reflect on itself while engaging the world—a linguistic revolution that will reshape Chinese thought.

MAJA MILOJKOVIĆ

You have translated some of the most iconic works in Western literature, including Ashbery, Whitman, and Dickinson. How do you approach translating poetry, particularly when adapting cultural nuances from English to Chinese?

YONGBO MA

Focusing on Ashbery: In the early 1990s, I encountered his Self-Portrait in a Convex Mirror and was captivated. Earlier, I had begun translating American Poetry since 1940 and since 1970: UPLATE for Beijing Normal University Press — China’s first postmodern poetry anthologies, filling a void. Ashbery’s allure lay in his elusive, sprawling style and the intellectual breadth absent in Chinese lyricism. His deconstructive approach was then alien to Chinese poetics.

On the surface, Ashbery’s linguistic material appears highly arbitrary, creating a certain degree of “obstruction” for readers. He emphasizes the power of artistic distortion and rejects traditional documentary realism. His

Generally, across cultures, poetry is often treated as the poet’s subjective outpouring, expressing their thoughts, emotions, and will. Only poets with pure faith, whether consciously or not, can imbue their work with a higher mission.

poems frequently employ free-associative imagery and exemplify the postmodernist focus on process, often laying bare the very act of poetic composition. He favors collage techniques, juxtaposing materials from heterogeneous contexts with deliberate randomness, all of which contribute to the notorious obscurity and polysemy of his work. For Ashbery, language is both a conveyor and an obstructer of meaning, possessing the dual attributes of revelation and concealment. Consequently, many of his poems aim to unravel the intricate relationship between language and meaning. The genesis of meaning, in his view, does not originate from the poet’s subjectivity, the text itself, the reader’s interpretation, or the external world. Instead, it emerges from a web of interwoven factors: the poet, the poem, language, the reader, reality, and beyond. These complexities impose significant pressure on translation.

In translating, I avoided overly smooth anguage yet steered clear of archaic diction (like that of the Chinese Union Version of the Bible), striking a balance between readability and poetic preservation.

Moreover, one of Ashbery’s greatest contributions to lyric poetry lies in his incorporation of an expansive social lexicon—colloquial speech, journalistic clichés, business and technical jargon, allusions to pop culture and canonical works, even platitudes — all of which abound, some of which are difficult to decipher. His poems never include annotations, as though the cultural fragments he collages should be universally familiar. Yet due to cultural and perspectival disparities, deconstructive uses of culturally specific references demand exhaustive effort to excavate and reconstruct.

Ashbery’s sprawling, witty, and humorous style thrives on “jump cuts” between fragments of experience at varying levels, resulting in dislocated meanings and fractures that startle readers — a hallmark pleasure of engaging with his poetry. However, beneath this humor, I perceive an undercurrent of desolation, even sorrow, which must be meticulously intuited and fully conveyed in translation. For this reason, I prioritize literal translation, preserving the original’s formal structure, neologisms, and syntax, avoiding excessive

“domestication.” This approach facilitates the mimicry of linguistic sensibilities while introducing novel expressions and lexical combinations to Chinese.

All translators are constrained by the linguistic norms of their era, and I am no exception.

MAJA MILOJKOVIĆ

Your translation of Moby Dick is a monumental achievement, with over half a million copies sold. What did you discover about the novel that influenced your poetic perspective, and how did you approach capturing its depth in Chinese?

YONGBO MA

Moby-Dick has ranked among the top bestsellers of foreign novels for four consecutive years, currently holding sixth place. One of its revelations for my writing is that it solidified my conviction in the necessity of cross-genre writing — a tradition tracing from Dante’s La Vita Nuova to Goethe’s Faust. Another insight lies in how we, as poets, reflect on ourselves through our relationships with the self, others, society, and nature. Yet if we remain confined to this “human” level, we struggle to grasp higher truths. Beyond these horizontal connections, we must introduce a vertical relation —from humanity to the divine. Only then can we recognize that Moby Dick represents not merely the raw power of nature nor Captain Ahab’s projection of self-will, but also transcends these symbolic layers to point toward the transcendental existence, namely God. Generally, across cultures, poetry is often treated as the poet’s subjective outpouring, expressing their thoughts, emotions, and will. Only poets with pure faith, whether consciously or not, can imbue their work with a higher mission.

Melville’s style is ornate, even extravagant, brimming with suggestion, metaphor, and poetic imagination. The novel is saturated with descriptive minutiae, dramatic tension, intertextual material, and overwhelming symbolism. In translating, I avoided overly

Language is the framework of human cognition; it determines modes of thinking. The worlds perceived by speakers of different languages differ significantly. Without the foreign vocabularies introduced through translation, no culture could develop healthily.

smooth language yet steered clear of archaic diction (like that of the Chinese Union Version of the Bible), striking a balance between readability and poetic preservation. All translators are constrained by the linguistic norms of their era, and I am no exception. Modern Chinese, diluted by the negative influences of mass culture, has grown desiccated and impoverished. To counteract this, I began each day’s translation work by reading passages from the Bible and Ming-Qing dynasty literary sketches, aiming to merge these two linguistic styles. This fusion sought to render the translation more supple, nuanced, and expressive. Overall, I succeeded in this endeavor.

MAJA MILOJKOVIĆ

You have been called one of the key figures in transforming the language of Chinese poetry. How do you view the relationship between language and the evolving nature of Chinese culture and thought?

YONGBO MA

Language is the framework of human cognition; it determines modes of thinking. The worlds perceived by

speakers of different languages differ significantly. Without the foreign vocabularies introduced through translation, no culture could develop healthily. Take Chinese culture as an example: the multiple waves of Buddhist

A poet’s crucial responsibility is to safeguard language — what is called “the pure dialect of the tribe” — especially when language is increasingly damaged and polluted by mass culture.

scripture translations and Bible translations not only brought new vocabulary to the Chinese language, but also introduced fresh perspectives and methodologies for viewing the world. Without the New Culture Movement characterized by the introduction of Western learning to the East, Chinese poetry would never have attained its current state.

A poet’s crucial responsibility is to safeguard language — what is called “the pure dialect of the tribe” — especially when language is increasingly damaged and polluted by mass culture. Poets must uphold the dignity of language, for beneath language lies the entire foundation of human existence. The corruption of the soul and the decay of society both originate from within language itself. In this sense, poets are the guardians of human civilization.

Chinese inherently possesses poetic qualities; it excels at presenting concrete objects. Yet this characteristic simultaneously imposes limitations — its capacity for logical expression remains

Poets must uphold the dignity of language, for beneath language lies the entire foundation of human existence.

relatively weak. Therefore, Chinese philosophy often relies on imagery to exhaust meaning, as seen in Laozi and Zhuangzi, particularly Zhuangzi’s philosophy which essentially constitutes prose poetry. Compared to languages like Latin, German, and English, Chinese faces greater challenges in expressing complex logical reasoning. My contribution to linguistic innovation lies in my experimental work that has endowed Chinese with a previously absent capacity for intricate self-referentiality — this constitutes a groundbreaking contribution.

MAJA MILOJKOVIĆ

In your academic work, you’ve explored both Chinese and Western poetics. Can you discuss the most compelling similarities and differences between these two traditions, and how they’ve shaped your work?

YONGBO MA

My doctoral and postdoctoral research both focused on comparative poetics, but your question is too vast — it requires an entire book to answer properly. Here I will only briefly touch upon a few points. English-language poetry and Chinese-language poetry share certain directional consistencies. For instance, both have broken free from metrical constraints: contemporary English poetry has deviated from traditional iambic meter (particularly in American poetry), while Chinese poetry, since the Vernacular Movement in the early 20th century, has severed ties with classical Chinese metrical traditions. Rhythm and form are no

longer essential characteristics of poetry. Modern Chinese and classical Chinese are fundamentally distinct systems. In this regard, Chinese poetry has been influenced by Western poetry.

Rhythm and form are no longer essential characteristics of poetry. Modern Chinese and classical Chinese are fundamentally distinct systems.

Of course, the liberation from formal constraints also occurred within Chinese poetry’s internal evolution — from the strict five- and seven-character regulated verse of the Tang Dynasty, to the more flexible Song lyrics, then to the looser Yuan qu verses, until complete formal liberation in modern times. Vernacular Chinese new poetry is merely a century old, having neither established an effective tradition nor maintained continuity with classical heritage — this creates an awkward predicament where its subjective identity struggles to solidify. Since the 1920s, successive generations of poets have clearly manifested foreign influences: Xu Zhimo with British Romanticism, Feng Zhi with Rilke and existentialism, Mu Dan with Auden, the Misty Poetry of the early 1980s with Russia’s Silver Age poetry, and the Third Generation (my own generation) with postmodernism, among others. These influences serve as both nourishment and constraint.

Regarding my personal creative practice, I resonate with T.S. Eliot’s assertion — I am “a classicist in literature” at core, yet formally integrate avant-garde elements. I strive to

I strive to synthesize these dual aspects. Central equilibrium without partiality, pursuing the Great Path straightforwardly while embracing all streams — this I term synthetic writing.

synthesize these dual aspects. Central equilibrium without partiality, pursuing the Great Path straightforwardly while embracing all streams — this I term synthetic writing.

MAJA MILOJKOVIĆ

Your recent work, Exploring the Origins of Chinese and Western Poetics, indicates a deep commitment to bridging cultural and philosophical divides. What do you think is the role of poetry in facilitating cross-cultural understanding?

YONGBO MA

The gap is definitely unbridgeable. How can I have such great energy? I am just doing some kind of work to build a rainbow bridge. My writing, translation and research have made groundbreaking contributions to the Chinese language in two aspects. One is the translation and research of British and American postmodern poetry.

Most of the postmodern experiments in Chinese are related to my translation. The American postmodern poetry anthology I translated is the earliest postmodern poetry anthology in Chinese, filling the gap.

The essence of existence, whether it is the existence of the world or the existence of our individual selves, fundamentally depends on a common element — the transcendental signified.

I spent 20 years introducing John Ashbery into Chinese, as the first translation, which has a wide influence. The other is my translation and research in ecological literature. I focused on translating and studying the three classic writers after Thoreau in the United States, John Muir, John Burroughs, and Mary Austin. I published more than 20 volumes of their works, and Mary Austin is the first Chinese translation.

MAJA MILOJKOVIĆ

Your poetry often grapples with complex metaphysical and existential themes. Can you describe a moment or experience that shaped your views on the nature of existence, and how that influenced your writing?

YONGBO MA

The essence of existence, whether it is the existence of the world or the existence of our individual selves, fundamentally depends on a common element — the transcendental signified. The “Ideas”and the “One” in Greek philosophy, “God” in the Bible, the “Dao” in Chinese thought, or the deities and Buddhas in other traditions —though named differently — still bear comparability and points of convergence.

Here, I would sum it up in one sentence — poetry is the natural outpouring of an awakened practitioner. Awakening means the union of man

I have proposed a distinction in Chinese between “the poetry of survival” and “the poetry of existence.”

and divinity, a return to the Great Transformation. This is the ultimate realm in which poetry serves the redemption of the soul. In this regard, I have proposed a distinction in Chinese between “the poetry of survival” and “the poetry of existence.” The former is merely the sharing of experience, a horizontal movement between human beings, whereas the latter, beyond the sharing of experience, incorporates a vertical movement — an ascent from man to God. The vast majority of poets remain at the level of “the poetry of survival” throughout their lives; only an exceedingly rare few, by grace, are able to ascend to the lofty realm of “the poetry of existence,” which, of course, requires the favor of a spirituality beyond the human.

At the age of six or seven, I was already deeply absorbed in the ultimate questions of life and death — questions no one could ever resolve.

My lifelong pursuit of poetry and scholarship has since been an endeavor to return to that moment of ultimate unity with all things.

That was the beginning of my awakening. By the third grade, when I was eleven years old, I had an extraordinary spiritual experience —I witnessed the complete truth of the universe across past, present, and future. It was a sacred experience beyond the power of language to convey, something that could only come as a revelation from the highest spiritual entity. In other words, some inexplicable and mysterious force helped me break free from the constraints of linear time and placed me directly at the center of the great vortex of the cosmos, spanning all ages.

My lifelong pursuit of poetry and scholarship has since been an endeavor to return to that moment of ultimate unity with all things. I coined a term — “universal synchronicity of all things” — to designate this transcendent state. In truth, we might just as well call it a paradise state. Thus, my approach to poetry differs from others’.

My approach to poetry differs from others’. I do not merely express my personal emotions and aspirations; rather, I serve as a messenger of a redemptive power that transcends the mundane world…. I remain convinced that poetry must preserve its core identity as a linguistic art while pursuing innovation within this framework.

I do not merely express my personal emotions and aspirations; rather, I serve as a messenger of a redemptive power that transcends the mundane world. My goal is not worldly success or literary recognition—though I do not reject these — but something far higher: to be a saint among poets. The desert pillar hermits are my models.

MAJA MILOJKOVIĆ

As a scholar and poet, you’ve seen shifts in global and Chinese literary movements. What do you believe is the future of poetry in China, especially with the rise of digital and experimental forms of expression?

YONGBO MA

My perspective isn’t broad enough to encompass global literary movements — my deeper familiarity lies primarily with Anglo-American literature.

As for the future of Chinese poetry, I dare not presume to assert definitive claims, particularly regarding its surface forms. It may very well merge with multimedia art, evolving into an interactive network of multidimensional expressions that transcend linguistic boundaries.

A national literature without external perspectives becomes mere soliloquy — just as one cannot see oneself without a mirror. A national culture must contribute meaningfully to world civilization.

Yet this raises a crucial question: Would such transformations fundamentally alter the essence of poetry? Taken to extremes, might this lead to poetry’s self-negation and eventual dissolution? I remain convinced that poetry must preserve its core identity as a linguistic art while pursuing innovation within this framework.

Chinese contemporary poetry still possesses vast potential for growth in establishing its modernity and postmodernity. Its future lies in becoming an organic component of world literature. While it’s often said that “what is national first becomes global,” I would invert this maxim: “Only what

The renewal of language is a prerequisite for social transformation. Of course, this transformation begins with the poet’s own self and soul — an internal, silent yet intense, even tragic, revolution — before it extends to the external world, or perhaps unfolds as a simultaneous inner and outer transformation.

is global can truly be national.” A national literature without external perspectives becomes mere soliloquy — just as one cannot see oneself without a mirror. A national culture must contribute meaningfully to world civilization.

One thing is certain: Chinese poetry must never revert to the traditions of Tang and Song dynasty verse. The natural, social, cultural, and linguistic foundations of modern and contemporary Chinese poetry have fundamentally diverged from those of the Tang and Song eras. Only by moving forward can new paths emerge.

MAJA MILOJKOVIĆ

In your view, how does poetry serve as a tool for social change or personal reflection, and do you see any particular responsibilities for poets in the modern age?

YONGBO MA

Language paves the way for action. It is the most vital vessel of thought — indeed, it is thought itself, the very mode of perceiving the world. The renewal of language is a prerequisite for social transformation.

The ultimate purpose of our lives lies in the awakening of the soul. Poetry primarily acts upon the individual soul of the poet first. In Buddhist terms, this is called “self-awakening and awakening others.” Poetry is not a weapon, yet it holds greater power than any weapon.

Of course, this transformation begins with the poet’s own self and soul — an internal, silent yet intense, even tragic, revolution — before it extends to the external world, or perhaps unfolds as a simultaneous inner and outer transformation.

The ultimate purpose of our lives lies in the awakening of the soul. Poetry primarily acts upon the individual soul of the poet first. In Buddhist terms, this is called “self-awakening and awakening others.” Poetry is not a weapon, yet it holds greater power than any weapon. Soviet Red Army soldiers inscribed Akhmatova’s verses on their tanks while charging against fascists. Yeats believed symbols could destroy the cosmos — though his mystical spiritualism may seem somewhat exaggerated, of course.

MAJA MILOJKOVIĆ

Given your vast body of work and accomplishments, what drives you to continue writing and translating? Are there specific themes or projects you still wish to explore before your career concludes?

YONGBO MA

My poetic journey has just begun, or as Dante declared, I find myself “midway through my life’s journey” (and spiritual quest). I have been developing a cross-genre work whose themes resonate with Odysseus’ exile and Faust’s eternal seeking.

Conventional verse forms can no longer contain these multi-contexts, making this work challenging to categorize — it will synthesize various Chinese and Western poetic forms,

My poetic journey has just begun, or as Dante declared, I find myself “midway through my life’s journey” (and spiritual quest).

philosophical meditations, dramatic fragments, and memoir elements.

Another ongoing project involves reciprocal collaborations with poets across languages to co-publish bilingual collections. I handle Chinese translations while collaborators publish in their home countries. This model transcends the limitations of one-way cultural export/import, creating mutual benefit. Foreign poets enter Chinese readerships through my translations, while my work reaches English-speaking audiences. The first completed project is Love Across Borders with Indian philosopher-poet Anand. The second is a trio with Greek poet Eva Petropoulou-Lianou and Mexican poet Jeanette Eureka Tiburcio, now available on Amazon. The third project, Zhao Ye Bai (Night-Illuminating White), co-created with British poet Helen Pletts, is undergoing final editing. The fourth collaboration with American poet Alex Johnson is currently in progress. We poets of different tongues should unite to dismantle the Babel Tower of languages and achieve universal harmony through poetry.

::::

Maja Milojković

Born in 1975 in Zaječar, She lived in Bor, Serbia and currently she lives between Serbia and Denmark. She holds an accolade of internationally recognized poet who advocates for peace in the world. In Serbia, she is the deputy editor at “Sfairos” printing house in Belgrade, Serbia. She is the vice-president of the association “Rtanj and Mesečev peski krug”. Maja Milojković is a person whose blood has been running from Leonardo da Vinci’s statement “Painting is poetry that can be seen, and poetry is a picture that can be heard.” She is a painter and reviewer.

As a poet, Maja Milojković is represented in numerous domestic and foreign literary newspapers, anthologies and electronic media, and some of her songs are also available on YouTube. She is the winner of many international awards. She is an activist of many associations and organizations, for peace in the world, against violence against animals, racism, etc. Maja Milojković is the author of 2 books: “The Circle of the Moon”- 2019 and “Trees of Desire”- 2023. Her poems have been translated into English, Hungarian, Bengali, Urdu, Pashto, Hindi and Bulgarian.

Maja Milojković is a member of the poetry club “Area Felix” from Zaječar, Serbia, and a member of the literary club “Zlatno pero” from Knjaževac, Serbia. She is also a member of the International Association of Writers and Artists “Gorski vidici” (“Mountain Views”) from Podgorica, Montenegro and other international organizations.

___________